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Old Jun 10th 2015, 07:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
Contrary to popular belief, bodyweight is NOT a factor when it comes to suspension setup. Bodyweight is irrelevant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but how could it not be a factor for setting up the sag?
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 07:17 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Grayson View Post
I think Shilling was just trying to compare guys. Everyone is going to have different ideas on suspension, that's why he went to Dave Moss.
It's fine to share settings but there really are so many variables and rider preferences, so it's only good as a starting point. I set the sag and adjust one or two clicks at a time, then go try it out. The Base suspension is pretty good - the shock would need to be changed out for the track but the fork is great.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 08:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
Dave Moss is a good dude. He helped crew our Endurance Team at the Grand Nationals last year. Not only did he help with the suspension, but he helped with tires, fueling the bike etc. It was really great having him on the team.

When you say he "setup" your bike, did he make any ride height adjustments?
No.. We will do any further adjustments at the track, if they are necessary.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 08:56 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
Contrary to popular belief, bodyweight is NOT a factor when it comes to suspension setup. Bodyweight is irrelevant. I have a good friend that weighs about 135lbs and runs 1.10 springs in the forks at most tracks (which is supposedly for somebody that weighs 225lbs+).
You are wrong; sorry. If I weigh 230 lbs and I have springs meant for a 150 lb rider, I will bottom out the forks and potentially crash. If I am 125 lbs (my wife is) and I ride a bike that was sprung from the factory for a 180 lb person, I will NEVER use the correct amount of suspension travel, because I cannot compress the springs through their DESIGNED range.

Valving is specific to spring rate as well. If you put a 1.1 spring on a shock that was valved for a .8 spring, it will not have NEARLY enough rebound damping to deal with the spring when it is fully compressed and starts to rebound.

Go talk to the head of Ohlins USA, go talk to Dan Kyle, go talk to Dave Moss (and I HAVE talked to all of them) , talk to ANY professional that has worked in WSBK, MotoGP, AMA or even AFm and tell them your theory; they will laugh at you.

Is a motorcycle rideable with the wrong springs on it for your weight? Of course, but it's nowhere near optimal.
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Last edited by 80shilling; Jun 10th 2015 at 09:00 AM.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by fzr100098 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but how could it not be a factor for setting up the sag?
First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:02 AM   #36
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Speaking of Dan Kyle. Where is Dan Kyle? lol
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by 80shilling View Post
You are wrong; sorry. If I weigh 230 lbs and I have springs meant for a 150 lb rider, I will bottom out the forks and potentially crash. If I am 125 lbs (my wife is) and I ride a bike that was sprung from the factory for a 180 lb person, I will NEVER use the correct amount of suspension travel, because I cannot compress the springs through their DESIGNED range.

Valving is specific to spring rate as well. If you put a 1.1 spring on a shock that was valved for a .8 spring, it will not have NEARLY enough rebound damping to deal with the spring when it is fully compressed and starts to rebound.

Go talk to the head of Ohlins USA, go talk to Dan Kyle, go talk to Dave Moss (and I HAVE talked to all of them) , talk to ANY professional that has worked in WSBK, MotoGP, AMA or even AFm and tell them your theory; they will laugh at you.

Is a motorcycle rideable with the wrong springs on it for your weight? Of course, but it's nowhere near optimal.
Slow down and think about it a little bit more. Chaotic's perspective comes from racing, and racing at the pointy end of the pack. Think of it another way, your wife and Marquez weigh about the same. You think he's running the same springs and valving she would? I've jumped on local fast kids bikes and they were almost always setup way stiffer than mine were, despite me having weight on them. Why? They are faster and generate way more force in all directions.

For us normal guys, it's not that big a deal and spring weights will move up and down with rider weight generally. But fast people operate on a different planet then us.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.
Dont tell him that, he will tell you that they wasted the extra money in having the extra people and equipment around simply because they wanted the best.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:07 AM   #39
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Leon, Wilkson...Your input please?
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 09:28 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Grayson View Post
Dont tell him that, he will tell you that they wasted the extra money in having the extra people and equipment around simply because they wanted the best.
Pro race teams do check sag, I have personally seen them do it and they have a shelf full of springs to choose from and they have data on every track they go to as a baseline, plus they already know the weight of their rider. A motorcycle from the factory is set for a specific weight and if you are NOT that weight, the spring is wrong for you.. Fact.

Why does Ohlins specifically state a sag measurement if it doesn't matter? Why do the guys I know who have worked on WSBK and AMA teams set sag if they have a new rider on their bikes? Why do they change spring rates on a per track basis? They change the rates because a spring is designed to work through a specific range of travel. This can be tailored to a specific LOAD that is generated (weight) dynamically.. A 125 lb MotoGP guy can generate a ton of load (weight), FAR more than a street rider or AFM level rider can, consequently, they need stiffer springs, because they are generating an appropriate load for that spring rate.

Road bikes only generate a narrow range of load and so we can figure out what that load is and allow for it, by choosing a spring rate that is appropriate for that load, which consists of rider weight and the amount of load that rider generates while riding. A 100 lb rider on a street bike on street tires (even at the track) will not generate the same load as an equivalent rider that weighs 250 lbs, the laws of physics dictate that; unless that 100 lb rider can somehow generate the same load as the 250 lb rider (and they can't if both riders are on the same equipment, same tires and are the same skill level).

Again, if springs don't matter and sag doesn't matter, then why does every single top end manufacturer of suspension specify sag settings and SPECIFICALLY state that you will need a different spring if you can't get that sag correct? Ohlins, K-Tech, Moton, JRZ, Penske Bi-Tubo ALL specify the sag range for their products and tell you to change the springs if you can't reach that figure.

I guess some people are so smart that they know more than Ohlins, Penske, Bi_tubo and actual people that have worked on AMA championship winning teams and set up the bikes.. INCLUDING SAG.... Yes... The guy that set up an AMA champion's suspension set his sag at each racetrack...

Dave Moss (and a few other suspension gurus) goes to every round of the AFM and other championship races and set up the suspension for many of the champions, including Rickey Corey (multiple AFM champion and sometime AMA rider) as well as the last 5 champions.. Guess what? He sets their sag and advises them on spring rates.
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