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Old Jun 10th 2015, 01:56 PM   #51
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 02:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Grayson View Post
Leon, Wilkson...Your input please?
I don't really have much . I work with a suspension tech at the track but really don't change too much least of all make dramatic changes .
I agree mostly with Chaotic he has similar thoughts to me .
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 03:05 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by wilkson View Post
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
Well said.
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Old Jun 10th 2015, 06:42 PM   #54
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Setting sag is just a method to get a baseline starting point, it's not the end result for a high-level setup. I've had that argument at the track many times while helping people with their setup. They say they set their sag to 36.823mm because that's what some expert on a forum told them to set it to. Then I tell them they need to add preload because their bike is riding too low in the front, and they resist because then their sag "won't be right". Tough to get the point across that what the bike is actually doing on the track trumps what it's doing sitting in the pits.
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:11 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.
Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
Slow down and think about it a little bit more. Chaotic's perspective comes from racing, and racing at the pointy end of the pack. Think of it another way, your wife and Marquez weigh about the same. You think he's running the same springs and valving she would? I've jumped on local fast kids bikes and they were almost always setup way stiffer than mine were, despite me having weight on them. Why? They are faster and generate way more force in all directions.

For us normal guys, it's not that big a deal and spring weights will move up and down with rider weight generally. But fast people operate on a different planet then us.
Exactly.

He is putting words into my mouth. Never did I say spring rates aren't important. They are very important. However, the way the bike reacts to you sitting on it in the pits is irrelevant.

The sag hasn't been checked on any of my race bikes in probably 7 years. A good friend of mine is a multi-time AMA winner, Daytona 200 winner and former WSS Factory Triumph racer, and he admitted that they NEVER check the sag on his bike. His Ohlins suspension tuner (who is also the tuner for some other AMA teams) agreed; they never check the sag on his bike.

And BTW - he is the guy I was talking about that weighs 135lbs and uses 1.10 springs (225+lbs) at most places. What do you reckon his sag numbers are? He holds more than one lap record, but please feel free to tell him he is wrong and he needs to worry about getting his sag numbers right.

Sag is good for somebody that has no clue where they are. It basically gives you a very generic, baseline setup that will help you keep the suspension in its normal working zone, in normal circumstances. Sure, if somebody buys a new street bike, has no prior knowledge on spring rates, by all means go for it.

But I stand by my original statement, bodyweight is not a factor when it comes to setting up suspension. What matters is how the bike feels, how the bike turns under braking and on the gas, how the bike utilizes the "happy zone" of suspension travel, rider preference (some people prefer to ride higher up in the stroke), tire wear, things of that nature. And none of those things are bodyweight dependent.
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by wilkson View Post
I don't really have much . I work with a suspension tech at the track but really don't change too much least of all make dramatic changes .
I agree mostly with Chaotic he has similar thoughts to me .
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
That is exactly my point.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say spring rate is unimportant. The springs are being changed in my 1299S before I even take delivery of it.

You can have 2 riders that weigh 175lbs, riding the same bike, on the same track, and will end up with different spring rates.

Spring rates vary based upon many circumstances. There is no way anybody can sit on the bike in the pits, set the sag, and then say "ok, im good...run it" and leave it at that. Again, setup is a living entity that changes often based upon many variables.

If I ran the spring rates required to get the sag numbers right, my bike only works right when I am coaching (riding at a reduced pace). As soon as I get to race pace, it bottoms out under braking and runs wide on exits.

And vice versa. When my bike is setup for racing, it handles like shit when I am coaching. It basically feels like I am riding on bricks. Exception being when I am coaching someone who is running at the front of the Advanced group, it will ride ok then. But short of that, it rides like im on bricks.

Last edited by Chaotic; Jun 11th 2015 at 07:31 AM.
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:28 AM   #57
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Let's take an extreme case: 260 lb rider on bone stock R6. How could that guy ever be fast with the stock springs? I get what you're saying but again this seems to be another expert who goes by feel vs. newer rider issue
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by fzr100098 View Post
Let's take an extreme case: 260 lb rider on bone stock R6. How could that guy ever be fast with the stock springs? I get what you're saying but again this seems to be another expert who goes by feel vs. newer rider issue
I don't think I read any comments that said springs/valving changes wouldn't be a good idea. I think the problem with the conversation is people picking bits and pieces out of the posts and not looking at the overall content of the message.

Springs/sag reccomendations are a good baseline. You tweak it from there based on actual performance. The higher up the skill ladder you are, the less you are going to look at sag IMHO.
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:44 AM   #59
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Im just going to take a poop before I ride to drop weight and leave my suspension alone.
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Old Jun 11th 2015, 07:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Grayson View Post
Im just going to take a poop before I ride to drop weight and leave my suspension alone.
Since nobody has bothered with giving a correct answer, I'll go ahead and just handle this.


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