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Old Jul 20th 2017, 09:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
OEM quoted base numbers should always be taken with a grain of salt. Ducati is one of the worst offenders. Most OEM's parasitic loss is around 10%. Ducati is closer to 15%. My 1299S only made 177hp before mods. I don't think it's going to make any less now that Ducati corrected it's numbers.

Mutt, have you ever put your bike on a dyno?
I get all that, I acknowledged it in my opening statement. My point is how can they so brazenly go back and just down grade all their figures? What like hoping no one notices? Hoping to sell more 1299 R's because they are better than the current R only by down grading it.

My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 09:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mutt1979 View Post
My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.
Welcome to the world of motorcycle sales my friend.

Remember when Yamaha said the new '06 R6 red lined at 17,500 RPM? They had to retract that pretty quick.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
Welcome to the world of motorcycle sales my friend.

Remember when Yamaha said the new '06 R6 red lined at 17,500 RPM? They had to retract that pretty quick.
At least they were gracious enough to retract it.

That being said, it could mean that the 1299 FE is a better motorcycle that I first thought?
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:07 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mutt1979 View Post
I get all that, I acknowledged it in my opening statement. My point is how can they so brazenly go back and just down grade all their figures? What like hoping no one notices? Hoping to sell more 1299 R's because they are better than the current R only by down grading it.

My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.
Advertised power outputs don't necessarily give an honest indication of true or actual output, whatever the manufacturer has or is now quoting, since in most cases, no two engines are the same. Whatever Ducati quote, your bike dynoed and tuned to suit (taking into consideration the exhaust system and air filter in use), would likely claw back some of the "losses" from the originally advertised figure to the one they now claim the engine makes.

As has been said on here already, it won't change what your own bike actually puts out at the rear wheel, which might be a lot healthier than the 15% typical loss you'd expect to see from the headline numbers. There are huge variances from one dyno to another but as long as your engine is working at it's optimal best, then you can't improve or expect much beyond that. You've a lovely bike there Mutt. Enjoy it. If current 1098R values are anything to go by, you might even want to consider it as a longer term investment. 35K for a clean example apparently!
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:11 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Mutt1979 View Post
At least they were gracious enough to retract it.

That being said, it could mean that the 1299 FE is a better motorcycle that I first thought?
That's in the eye of the beholder imo. HP isn't at the top of my list when considering a bike. For other people, it's the #1 determining factor.

Perosnally, the FE doesn't do it for me.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:13 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by topolino View Post
Advertised power outputs don't necessarily give an honest indication of true or actual output, whatever the manufacturer has or is now quoting, since in most cases, no two engines are the same. Whatever Ducati quote, your bike dynoed and tuned to suit (taking into consideration the exhaust system and air filter in use), would likely claw back some of the "losses" from the originally advertised figure to the one they now claim the engine makes.

As has been said on here already, it won't change what your own bike actually puts out at the rear wheel, which might be a lot healthier than the 15% typical loss you'd expect to see from the headline numbers. There are huge variances from one dyno to another but as long as your engine is working at it's optimal best, then you can't improve or expect much beyond that. You've a lovely bike there Mutt. Enjoy it. If current 1098R values are anything to go by, you might even want to consider it as a longer term investment. 35K for a clean example apparently!
Again I know this.......... Perhaps being owned by VW has rubbed off on them?!

Yes, the R is a keeper

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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:17 AM   #17
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Mutt, i agree. You were sold on the premise of one thing and well, that was a lie. The fact that someone stated that bikes usually lose 10% and yet ducati lose 15% shows that they fluff the number. Ducati wouldn't be losing 15% but maybe more like 10% if they actually gave accurate figures to begin with.

I know when i bought my bike, it was hailed as one of the lightest and most HP bikes on the market (best HP to weight at the time) NOW it may not be that. Hell, maybe the dry weight was wrong also... (really could care less but i agree its the principle of the matter)

I wouldnt be shocked if a class action suit didnt come from this to be honest... some people wanted the most HP etc etc and now that it has come back they false advertised, these people will push the case
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:30 AM   #18
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I bought the R because it was light weight, I couldn't afford the SL and I was seriously tired of hustling my RC51 "the albino rhino" around my home track.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by lamb00j View Post
Mutt, i agree. You were sold on the premise of one thing and well, that was a lie. The fact that someone stated that bikes usually lose 10% and yet ducati lose 15% shows that they fluff the number. Ducati wouldn't be losing 15% but maybe more like 10% if they actually gave accurate figures to begin with.

I know when i bought my bike, it was hailed as one of the lightest and most HP bikes on the market (best HP to weight at the time) NOW it may not be that. Hell, maybe the dry weight was wrong also... (really could care less but i agree its the principle of the matter)

I wouldnt be shocked if a class action suit didnt come from this to be honest... some people wanted the most HP etc etc and now that it has come back they false advertised, these people will push the case
To anyone considering it I'd say "good luck with that" To start the litigation process, you'll need a truck load of money to get them into court and you would have to contest with the fact that at the time of purchase the figures were (they will claim) correct based on the measurement techniques used at the time. As a manufacturer, they have the right to change these figures at will, if later found to be inaccurate. As long as they can show that they did not misprepresent the bike (if they knowingly had an alternative more accurate way to measure engine output at the time of sale) then they are squeaky clean sadly. What's more you'll pay their legal fees as well as your own if you lose. Happy hunting.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 10:50 AM   #20
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I think too many are getting hung up on specific dyno numbers. Different dynos on different days depending on the weather will give different numbers. Correction factors only go so far. These are 200 hp bikes no matter how you look at it. The best comparison is to run the bikes on the same dyno with the same weather conditions. I see nothing wrong with what Ducati did. The FE makes 12 hp more but weighs the same vs the standard 1299. Is it worth $10+K more? I don't think so and I'm puzzled by Ducati's pricing on it because it's not limited. They probably built rebates in it. The bike would be a little more compelling if it had cruise control and heated grips.
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